f.haeder.net

^----Great question
Humans can be great :-D
How did they know which one to go to?
I think they spotted the seal in question before they ran towards them
On the other hand humans kill around 200 million animals every day, Not to survive just for the pleasure of eating a steak or fish.
Human is the worst specie on earth.
I wouldn't be surprise that those young people are not vegan. Coherence is not its strong point
Maybe a closer affinity to animals would help these others here to change their habits too. Think +
I hope so...
Do these sea lions or fur seals eat anything but fish?
@Boris B : don't get what you mean ?
It's funny how some people are so self righteous they need to judge how strangers might eat, people they will never meet. Do you worry about everybody you don't know and their diet? Get a grip.
Many animal lovers are vegan
many animal lovers like metal music, many animal lovers vote left, many animal lovers sit when they pee etc
Roland Häder doesn't like this.
why are you flaming or shitting on so many people? You are really a dump ass if you continue like that and you might get blocked by more and more.
eating meat is not a diet, Get a grip !
i dont eat meat, since 27 years, little boy!
and the main factor, why i dont become vegan, is the anoying missionary preaching from vegan people!
fucking middle class arrogance
Roland Häder doesn't like this.
Wow. I'd like to say I've lots of respect for quiet vegans, and that meat-eaters loudly complaining about loud vegans should get a grip and understand that the real divide here isn't between vegans and meat-eaters but between loudly righteous people and quiet people, which is cross-cutting.

This said, my efforts up to now have mostly consisted in electing to eat dinosaurs over mammals, because footprint (and avenging Jurassic Park;)

An interesting thought in the area is that you can pick a more or less restrictive clade among those containing humans to identify with, to then call cannibals those eating of it. The widest plausible clade there is likely eukaryotes, which would allow one to survive on a diet of bacteria and admit even vegans in the count of cannibals.
I'm with a #vegan #activism group and most of them are nice people. They want to show people what it means to eat #meat, how your meat you have on your grill or in pan is being produced, what kind of #violence is behind it. But hey, sure this is far off-topic.

The seal got stuck in #plastic that had been dumped reckless into ocean.

I think it is them?

YouTube: We Saved a Seal's Life! :) (Brother Nature, Hawaii)


No the exact video, but they seem to be the same guys?
Same here, since July/August this year. :-)
I wouldn't be surprise that those young people are not vegan. Coherence is not its strong point
Haha.
You judge and condamn à priori.
I’ve lots of respect for quiet vegans

me too, but that elitist preaching is anoying
Roland Häder doesn't like this.
@murdered dream: What made you think the comments was for you? Are you the one who talked about diet? are you the one who said "get a grip".

Do you think because you are old your ideas are better ?
Do you have something against little boys ?
Do you know me to call me little boy ?
Do you know my life to call me middle class ?
why i dont become vegan, is the anoying missionary preaching from vegan people!
please stop the bullshit! it's like if i say: "I have a lot of respect for feminism but I don't become feminist cause feminist women make us feel bad and are arrogant".
(you can change the term feminist by racist, antifa, anti nazis, etc.)
I have a lot respect for #feminism1.0 whilke I stronly oppose 2.0 and 3.0 generations (2nd and 3rd generations of feminists). Do you also call that bullshit and find it okay, calling me a woman-hater (by feminists 3.0) or "toxic masculinity" which I had never been?
@Salinger 3
je ne sais pas si tu vois la différence entre I am not surprise et I wouldn't be surprise ?
trop subtil pour toi peut-être ?
Do you think because you are old your ideas are better ?
Do you have something against little boys ?
Do you know me to call me little boy ?
Do you know my life to call me middle class ?
  • no, but i am exhausted by kids, who are since 2weeks/2years/etc vegan, who call me a "fascist", because i use milk products
  • no, but explained above
  • no, but experince, see above
  • no, but experience, see above, my personal highlight was a 21 years old fresh vegan activist, who called a friend of mine, which had to escape the pinochet-regime a "fascist", because she tried to explain to him, that the people in in the slums of santiago dont have the choice to buy healthy vegan/vegetarian food and are happy, when they get some meat, he was very lucky, that she didnt punched him
ps women are not cows, there is a difference between humans and animals, the live of a refugee has more value, then the life of a chicken or a bee!
ps women are not cows, there is a difference between humans and animals, the live of a refugee has more value, then the life of a chicken or a bee!
That is exactly what white people used to say with black people, nazis with jewish and men with women ! yòu are in the same mechanism of discrimination. Why a human life would be more important that a cow, chicken or pig life knowing that they can feel pain, joy just like us and are conscient of their life?

you are against discrimination, oppression ONLY when it comes to your specie, a kind of communautarism, chauvinism....
That is exactly what white people used to say with black people, nazis with jewish and men with women
you are putting animals on the same level like humans to me, thats a fascist view on humans and i dont debate that kind of fascist nonsens, a human has a free will and can make rational decisison (or has the potential), and animal doesnt, you cant teach an carnivore like a cat to live from plants (without harming their health).
a human live allways has more value then a cow, a dog or a dolphin, if you put women, "jews", "non-white" people lgbtq-people on the same level like pigs, you are an anti-humanist fascist.

the funny point, is, that you by yourself doesnt do that factial, even you see more value in a human, then in a pig, if someone would ask you, to pay for a human life 100euro, or that person becomes slaughtered, you would organize that 100euros, but you only have warm words for hat pig.

ps you miss the difference between similarity and equality
Yeah, the problem being is the level of sentience we can appreciate @murdeRED dreams GrandWizardOfZOG and really we all know that the only way is breatharianism.
and i guess, when the state/eu would start to finance the industrial murdering of lgbtq-, "non-white"-, "jewish"- etc- people, we both would be allready in the armed resistance and attack these killing factories, at least, i hope so
or would you really deal with meat-eaters, like with neonazi-murderers? is your meat-eating neighbour "bad" like anders breivik, robert gregory bowers, brenton tarrant etc? really? the same level?
(a serious question and i am very curious, if and how you will answer!) @durand_eric@framasphere.org
--> if you put women, "jews", "non-white" people lgbtq-people on the same level like pigs, you are an anti-humanist fascist.

I don't put them on the same level but on the same consideration of life. The fascist is more someone who do care about his race, skin color, specie instead of thinking: "if they are conscient of they life, if they don't want to die, if they feel lack of freedom, why should I keep on doing to them things I wouldn't accept for my specie".
Force a cow to have a baby, steal her baby, kill her after 4 or 5 years after a slavery life isn't fascist ?
I think it's time for you to read the Charles Patterson book :"Eternal Treblinka"
That durand needs to remove that weird anarchy symbol from his profile pic. He's a fascist.
I don't think you get the definition of antispeciest? we defend all animals even the human one. we think that the line that draw the human between him and the other animals is bullshit. The only consideration to take into account is pain. If somevody is suffering there is no excuse to relieve that pain when it's possible. Thinking :"They are only animals is exactly what people did with blacks, jews, etc"
so you make a seriouse distinction between the value of human lives and animal lives? or is the butcher evil like a nazi-murderer?
“Eternal Treblinka”
and someone who putz the nazi-death camps on the same level, like pork-production, is an antisemitic piece of shit, no matter, what singer said!

ps but you reminded me on the other reason, why i dont become a vegan (the third on, is that i have a shitty "diet";), the fascist, anti-humanistic approach from many vegans (greetings to all the reasonable vegans in the world, you should keep your lines a bit more tidy;)
answer the question!
so you make a seriouse distinction between the value of human lives and animal lives? or is the butcher evil like a nazi-murderer?

What is so wrong about eating eggs or milk?
the capitalistic circumstances under which these things get produced, the suffering which that production causes, the pollution, which that production causes, the health-problems which the production causes!
these are all good arguments to become vegan, but putting animals on the same level like humans isnt!
That durand needs to remove that weird anarchy symbol from his profile pic. He's a fascist.
tell me one thing mountain bike... Isn't anarchism against all sort of oppression, coercion and hierarchy ?
You should get of your mountain bike and go in an anarchist organizing assembly, you will see that the food is vegetarian. Saying you are anarchist dosen't make you anarchist. You have to be in accordance with your ideas and for this you have to leave your capitalist confort zone a bit.
Isn’t anarchism against all sort of oppression, coercion and hierarchy ?
dont tell the bee-queen or the alpha-dog :D
answer the question!
so you make a seriouse distinction between the value of human lives and animal lives? or is the butcher evil like a nazi-murderer?
you have to leave your capitalist confort zone a bit.
lol, where should that be? do they provide vegan food&clothes without any money? where is that exchange-value-free "zone"?
i have the hint, little boy eric refuses to answer, once again!
Get off* my mountain bike? How about no, loser.
answer the question!
which one ?

so you make a seriouse distinction between the value of human lives and animal lives?
No I don't. you do

is the butcher evil like a nazi-murderer?
of course not. The butcher is like the white people during slavery, the antisemitic in France the last century or sexist men. They are in the norm. They are nice people that can commit atrocities as long as it is authorized by law.

What is so wrong about eating eggs or milk?
Man we are in 2019, if you don't know what's wrong with milk and eggs...
go to the library and get the peter singer's book: "animal liberation"...

putting animals on the same level like humans isnt!
That is the problem talking of this subject with someone who has never open a book about antispeciesm. We DON'T put them on the same level. We don't ask votes for cows. does feminist by asking the same rights for them ask us to get pregnant ?
We don't want that cats become vegetarian either cquse they are carnivorous
Loser
it seems that you don't have more augmentation...
I have the hint, little boy eric refuses to answer, once again!
Little boy, once again. Why don't you stay to the fact and stop your bullshit. you don't know my age. I might be older than you. Sure of one thing, you way of thinking is from the past.
the nazi-death camps on the same level, like pork-production, is an antisemitic piece of shit, no matter, what singer said!
Curiously, I'd not expect adepts of this form of objection to protest if someone was to depict the Nazi death camps by saying they were processing humans similarly to how many meat factories process animals. What this misleadingly simplified phrasing means to protest is only the converse, which is painting how meat factories process animals as comparable to how Nazis processed internees (who btw weren't limited to Jewish people).

And it only makes sense if it is assumed dominates the crowd, people who fail to ever ask themselves "is B (un)like A?" when adopting "A is (un)like B".
#AhOuiMaisNon, j'ai Cœurs Brisés, là !!!
Worry about your own life and GET OFF THE COMPUTER
the gas chambers where mainly a "jewish privilege"
so you make a seriouse distinction between the value of human lives and animal lives?
No I don’t. you do

is the butcher evil like a nazi-murderer?
of course not. The butcher is like the white people during slavery, the antisemitic in France the last century or sexist men. They are in the norm. They are nice people that can commit atrocities as long as it is authorized by law.

That is the problem talking of this subject with someone who has never open a book about antispeciesm. We DON’T put them on the same level.
so you dont make a distinction, but you dont put them on the same level, impressive logic and of course, you dont see the conradiction, just btw the murdering jews was even in ns-germany NOT legal!
impressive
just to get it right, the butcher is on the same level like eichmann or a death-camp-prison guard, who gassed "jews"?
or is there a serious distinction?
one day, some alien will read over these comments and think to themselves
“wow… on the internetz they would fight over anything… even nothing at all.”
someone who putz the nazi-death camps on the same level, like pork-production, is an antisemitic piece of shit,
Oops I forgot that for you were are either nazis or fascists.
The nazi camp were made to exterminate Jews. The animal farming don't want to exterminate animals, they want to reproduce them to kill them and eat them. Big difference. The method are the same (concentration camps, gas chambers, torture) because the nazis copied from the sloughterhouse of Chicago.
Read a bit before accusing everybody of antisemitic (I know you have a problem with that but relax)
It amazing how the horror affects you when it comes to human being and specially jews but you don't give a shit when it comes to another species. I know that you were born 2 or 3 hundered years ago but science has made progress now you know. It has been prove that non-human animals suffer too.
so you dont make a distinction, but you dont put them on the same level
I make a distinction between a man and a woman or a cow or a rat cause we are different BUT it's not a reason to make a discrimination cause the man, the woman, the cow, the rat, they all want to live their life.
It that difficult to understand ?
just to get it right, the butcher is on the same level like eichmann or a death-camp-prison guard, who gassed “jews”?
No he is not. He is like a slave trader. back in a day.
Until we condemned slavery, the slave trader was seen as nice person who respect the law, a businessman.
Before we condemn antisemitism, a lot of people could say atrocitis about jewish without any problem. It was accepted because of the norm.
I make a distinction between a man and a woman or a cow or a rat
so your answer
No I don’t. you do
was wrong or a lie? so it is NOT on the same level, so there are serious differences between a human and an animal and the live of a human has a higher value

ps slave-traders normally didnt killed their slaves, the tried to trade them, like animals, the aim was not to kill them and to exploit their flesh, it was all about exploiting their work-force

thank you for exposing your hypocrisy

pps did i mention, that i dont eat meat since more then 27years?
ppps i have no problem in discriminating some humans, like nazis, antisemites, sexists etc
one day, some alien will read over these comments and think to themselves
“wow… on the internetz they would fight over anything… even nothing at all.”
Hope they won't put us in slavery thinking that we are only human... :-)
Raph Friendi friendica (via ActivityPub)
The diference between slaughtering a human being and a chicken is probably in the hate you put in such an act. You kill a chicken at least to eat it, you kill a human just because you hate him/her with no other purpose. I also would place more value in a human life than in a chicken's (talking about feelings here), but if there are some ways to avoid creating more suffering in this world, human or animal, then I think we should all go for it.
@Raph Friendi - I'm not sure why the conversation here ended up where it did. I mean it started with people helping out a seal ...
Peu importe ce que j ai compris.
Eux par contre on bien compris que tu les jugeais et les condamnais sans les connaître.
As far as I could measure, the reason why the conversation went from people helping out a seal ...to where it went ...is that @durand_eric@framasphere.org resented that the spectacular clip enabled communing on feeling-good-over-helping-a-suffering-animal ...to meat-eaters ...including the viewers and potentially the human heroes of the clip ...who'd enjoy feeling good that way while staying blissfully unaware of the scale of the suffering that their meat diet inflicts on animals -- a suffering that vegans act to relieve without spectacle.

While no vegan, I can understand the gear of such resentment. It's analogous to why I particularly hate weapons engineers as a kind of engineer myself, when I imagine them feeling about their creations working as intended similarly to how I feel seeing my creations working as intended.
All wishes fulfilled.

Alt text
@Boris B: that's exactly the point.
BTW, enables me to answer a question you asked early:
Do these sea lions or fur seals eat anything but fish?

@Boris B : don’t get what you mean ?

In reaction to your talking of consistency -- the clip admits "classist" interpretation as hailing solidarity with a fellow fish-eating mammal cousin, alongside its interpretation as vegan-style "kingdom" solidarity with animals in general. Comparable, say, to the documented tendency of leopard seals to feed divers watching them with penguins. Whatever.
People, please : stop saving animals when you eat meat or vegans will give you enless life lessons again
@Le Général Midi LOL I am a vegan but after reading this endless argument your comment made me smile
More accurate: stop congratulating "man" before a spectacle made of it.

To me (who eats meat, if not every day) the most obnoxiously loud party aren't the overly righteous among vegans but those meat-eaters who don't just want to continue eating meat, but to continue to feel perfectly righteous in enthusiasm for eating meat. To keep the eating of meat in the pantheon of the great pleasures in life to give to their children... which makes them allergic to any infusion of vegan viewpoint.
I think that when you get into the "vegan thing" (by reading a lot of book about antispeciesm, lectures and conferences), you never get the same anymore. You just moved the cursor of consideration to include the other animals, our neighbour on earth. You realise then that people are joking about veganism (like general midi did) to take the subject out of the political circle like men dis when women asked for vote and make us believe that it's not a serious problem (when we talk about billions of sentient beings killed every years). It reminds me the white people laughing when black people were killed by the police or the KKK. White people were nice and honest people. They were not nazis. You just realised that the mechanisms of discrimination are the same and get angry to the system that hide the suffering of animals, the diseases by eating animal proteins, the environment problems with livestock (a 10 min videos that explain those 3 points: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uQCe4qEexjc)
You turn into a traitor to your specie just like abolitionist white people where treated too.
It doesn't mean that we want to kill meat eaters (we used to be part of them) but we try to show the inconsistency of the human when it comes to defend its privileges (eating meat and dairy are privileges. We don't need it).
😂😮😯 that is alot of writing
but not a lot of substance, mainly moral with a link o the universitity of youtube
btw midi wasnt joking about vegans, he was joking about the endleass moral preaching by some vegans, which is a very big difference.
and your moral shit (the preaching) is moral, not politics
oh well im only 13 so... like I didn't get what you or the other guy with all of the writing just said so... yea😂
I don't give a shit about politics. If someone is drowning, I won't ask him if he's nazi, racist, or jewish, feminist or vegan before I decide to save his life or not. I've read no books to get this opinion, I made it myself
there to confusing and who cares what you look like? not me
Please have a go at defining "morals". I mean, of course I can read definitions and the word also exists in my language but when I try to recollect when it entered my live lexicon, what comes is its usage as a synonym for "intuitive" by math teachers -- ie, not surely true but making sense. It wasn't any named primitive in my upraising at all, and I struggled to emulate the self-evidence of the term when I started encountering it a lot ...in politics-related US English discourse. I see it as involving an allusion to a religious background by ppl assuming everyone knows what they are talking about.
"moral" is in the same bag as "evil" actually. Both words that I see used liberally by Americans as basic vocabulary. But they have no equivalents in the basic vocabulary of my youth.

This said, I do see that eric durand's portrayal of his evolved perception of eating meat, admits "eating meat is evil" for accurate shorthand... to whom "evil" is basic vocabulary.

...which in turn makes me wonder on the roots of the negative reception of it. Like there'd be a scenario of learning first about the name of evil and how to obey the tag, later only about what secondarily justifies particular uses of the tag, more or less well, that ends up understood not as preceding the tag but as paraphrase for the tag. Then rejection of the manipulative or surreptitiously authoritarian character of the trope. Then perception of whatever reads like a natural paraphrase for the tag, as belonging to the same despicable sector.
It's amazing ho many pople call "moral" opression that a lot of substance, mainly moral with a link o the universitity of youtube

Right. I forgot that when we are not affected by the opression, it's called moral...
moral= you shouldnt do it, because itz bad, idealistic critizism, without any materialistic foundation
and you can justify veganism with materialism, but that "animals have feelings 2" is moral
I forgot that when we are not affected by the opression, it’s called moral
nope and if you think, that you are not "affected" by oppression, because you are not the object of that oppression you dont think very well, i am affected by prisons, even when i am not (currently) in prison
I forgot that when we are not affected by the opression, it’s called moral
nope and if you think, that you are not “affected” by oppression, because you are not the object of that oppression you dont think very well, i am affected by (the existence of) prisons, even when i am not (currently) in prison, the general existence of oppression does affect anyone

ps there is still important difference between humans and animals
and the critizims goes towards your (moral) preaching, not against your vegan practice
Well, as I see it, mundane, natural levels of empathy make typical treatment of animals in meat factories, read as quite cruel and a hard watch to consumers not accustomed to question or consider the supply chain of meat they routinely eat.

Maybe it's anthropomorphizing... but whether it should count as deluded anthropomorphizing is actually irrelevant to the fact that steeling yourself against such spontaneous empathy for apparently-suffering animals is not substantially different from steeling yourself against spontaneous empathy towards suffering humans.

And the former can be self-training in preparation to the latter. I believe among things attended to by profilers tracking sadist criminals, are records of cruelty to animals.
if you think, that you are not “affected” by oppression, because you are not the object of that oppression you dont think very well, i am affected by prisons, even when i am not (currently) in prison
You say you are affected by prison cause it doesn't cost much saying it. Most of us are affected by what is happening with migrants trying to enter in Europe or USA but we don't do anything cause we are not direclty concerned. You eat dairy knowing that cows are slaved to the dairy business. Are you for slavry ?

Do you mean that people that defend anti racism, anti sexism, antispecism are moralist preachers ?
no, people, who equal "non-whites" with animals are not "moralistic", they are racist, but of course, you can justify that racism with moral

and i would advice reading arendt about the right to have rights, you are directly affected by the border-regime
Do you mean that people that defend anti racism, anti sexism, antispecism are moralist preachers ?
depends, but people who are anti-speciist, are mainly idiots, lead by moral, because you cant put animals and humans on the same level, without beeing an idiot, but we allready had that debate, where you had to confess, that you dont put them on the same level

ps and i prefer critizing racism instead of making that so called "anti-racism" an ideology, but thats maybe a debate about words

pps the critizism of sexism is normally, in the word sense, something different then "anti-sexism", because in a patriarchy society, you cant be sex- or gender-blind, but meaybe just a debate about the label/word
You eat dairy knowing that cows are slaved to the dairy business. (...) antispecism
Applying to cattle the measure by which health of a species is measured in the wild... makes cattle big winner rather than loser among species, of human action.
you cant put animals and humans on the same level, without beeing an idiot
That's exactly the same speech white people use to have with black and men with women, find a difference to better discriminate them. But you are right we already talk about it and you showed that you were very "old school".
I know that things that doesn't concern human has no interest for you but you should read books like "sexual politics of meat" (Carol J Adams) or the speech of Angela Davis for the 17th Steve Biko memorial lecture. You will see that intersectionality includes all the oppressed people, not only your specie.
You are right Boris. Wild animal suffer way more than cows but we have the ability to stop farm animal suffering by not eating them. For wild animals we are all res possible by our way of living and it's harder to stop it straight away.
That’s exactly the same speech
nope, it isnt and animals are not "people"
Yes it is. Only the reference is changed. Your limit is the human, their limit were the color of skin or the sex.
yes, the subject in that sentence is another, the sentence "oranges are orange" is totally correct, the sentence "apples are orange" is wrong, the grammar of that senteces is exactly the same, but when you change the subject in that sentence, it becomes wrong.
"fight nazis" is, in your logic, "exactly the same speech" like "fight anarchists", we only changed the subject!
and yes, i see a difference in the biological fact that a chicken is something different, then a human. a "non-white" human, is still a human, a chicken isnt!
I once married a slug. We divorced soon, we had a communication breakdown. She couldn't forgive me not to give her a child. From what I guessed because we never talked, not even 1 word like "yes" during our wedding. All I know is she would never have saved a seal, or killed one either
That's what I am saying. You are not against suffering, prison or injustice. You are against injustice, prison or suffering when it comes to humans (actually not all the humans cause I remember you posting a greeting message from the ISF after the bombing of gaza).
“fight nazis” is, in your logic, “exactly the same speech” like “fight anarchists”, we only changed the subject!
This is what people like you do. I say that if someone is suffering we have to stop that pain no matter the color, the sex, the religion or the specie as we all suffer the same.
You put the human above all the other animals (with you own criterion) , never read about antispecism before but call all the people who don't agree with you stupid, fascist or antisemitic.
see a difference in the biological fact that a chicken is something different, then a human. a “non-white” human, is still a human, a chicken isnt!
You are the pure example of what the definition of specism says:

"Specism is to the species what racism and sexism are to race and sex respectively: the will not to take into account (or to take less into account) the interests of some for the benefit of others, pretending to be real or imaginary differences but always without a logical link with what they are supposed to justify."

You choose the biological difference to make the discrimination between non-human animals and human-animal like other choose the color of skin to defend their discrimination.
You put the human above all the other animals
yes, i do, you too
I don’t put them on the same level
there are 2 options, option one, you lied in one of these quotes or you are to stupid, to see the contradiction

ps do you put the people in gaza on the same level, like pigs? please, could you carry a sign, which says that, to your next hamas-gaza-support-demonstration?
yes, i do, you too
Of course I do cause of a specist education BUT I try to erase those defects. It like when we say we are feminist (i am talking about men), we are not feminist, we try to be more feminist as we can.

you lied in one of these quotes or you are to stupid,
or you are too stupid to see the difference when I talk about putting them on the same level of CONSIDERATION or you are just dishonest like when you talk about Israel. In both way you defend your interests.
lol, please, carry that sign on your next hamas-gaza-support-demonstration :D

ps yes, i do fight fascists, even when these fascists are humans, because humans can have ideology, animals cant (or did you ever met a communist dog?;)
I talk about putting them on the same level of CONSIDERATION
so you lied? are there different levels or not? is there a difference or not?
pfffffffffffff !!!!!!!!!!!!!
lo't OBCD, là , qui guette sur des com nanglé pour mettre son com 100..
either you are dumb or you don't want to understand. Can't spend my time with you.
Read my posts or get informed about what is antispecism. you talk without having a clue of what it is.
Start with "the animal liberation" from Peter Singer - 1975.
Be careful, you hman pride might be affected.
Ciao.
lol, i read your posts, thats why i ask, do you make a difference between humans or not, one time you wrote, that you do, another time you wrote that you dont, there is a contradiction in your own statements!
génial ! m1tenant j'a des notifs de com en nanglé que j'y comprenVe r'en ! Merssiki !!
t'as qu'à cliquouiller pour plus les avoir pov'nouiiiiiiille !!!
(à moi le comm 200 !)
You put the human above all the other animals

I don’t put them on the same level
_tupepa avoir le c0m 200, pisske t'as goûté et villa des brisés comme activités,... _
nan mais là y vont à deux à l'heure, c'est bon…
copied from my comments above:

or you are too stupid to see the difference when I talk about putting them on the same level of CONSIDERATION or you are just dishonest like when you talk about Israel. In both way you defend your interests.
yes, i dont see the difference between "putting them on the same level" and "i dont make differences"
the funny point is, i have that debate since more then25years and itz allways the same, when you proof that contradiction, the debate allways ends with "you need to read a book from singer", like that would be a proper argument and make that contradiction vanish

ps it doesnt!
No contradiction.
I can see that you haven't evolved in 25 years. i am not suprised.
lol, yes, i still see that contradiction, even when i read singer and about singer, but maybe that vegan "dialectics", humans are animals and there is no difference, but we dont put them on the same level, while we put them on the same level 0o
and, of course, we dont neeed logical arguments, because that is "speciism", logic and arguments are a human-centric concept, chicken dont know logic or arguments
the guy who ask above in a comment "What is so wrong about eating eggs or milk?" trying to make us believe that ha has been talking about specism the last 25 years and never found coherency. Please !
“What is so wrong about eating eggs or milk?”
i guess, you mean me? could you please quote me or do you need to lie?
and if there is NO coherncey, itz not my fault, but i see, how you handle the concpet of "truth", "logic" and "argument", pathetic!
maybe you just made a mistake or confused me with someone else, but i really would like to see that quote (and an apology;)!
@durand_eric@framasphere.org
You are right Boris. Wild animal suffer way more than cows but we have the ability to stop farm animal suffering by not eating them. For wild animals we are all res possible by our way of living and it’s harder to stop it straight away.
When speaking of the health of a species of wild animals, the issue isn't (just) the suffering (or not) of individuals, it's also (and foremost, in fact) the size of their population. By both measures if we follow you, and certainly by the latter measure, cattle benefit hugely as a species from our farming them. It's not imaginable they would persist in remotely comparable numbers, if we stopped eating them, or if we stopped milking them, or both.

This being said, the health of the planetary environment is a compelling reason to renounce their farming. Their huge number and biomass makes them a notorious burden to the environment, in particular the co2-equivalent emissions, at a time it's become extremely urgent to reduce the latter.
Oooook diaspora
Je ne sais pas ce qui se passe , mais bravo pour le comm100, très disruptif
Oooook diaspora
(maintenant, un bon yaourt)
le 76 m'a paru plus pertinent, mais il répondait à un de mes arguments, alors ça compte moitié moins
the real debate should be "why save a seal when thousand migrants drown in Meditteranée each year"
Because it’s an oceanic shore far from the Mediterranean, likely on the Pacific? Apart from that, right.
@the grand Simard or bullshit: comment 36

answer the question!

so you make a seriouse distinction between the value of human lives and animal lives? or is the butcher evil like a nazi-murderer?

What is so wrong about eating eggs or milk?

the capitalistic circumstances under which these things get produced, the suffering which that production causes, the pollution, which that production causes, the health-problems which the production causes!
these are all good arguments to become vegan, but putting animals on the same level like humans isnt!
the real debate should be "why save a seal when thousand migrants drown in Meditteranée each year"
Either you didn't follow the conversation or you didn't understand a word....
So basically @durand_eric@framasphere.org there's nothing ethically wrong with consuming eggs or dairy products other than the mode of production, which we could use to negate the purchase [use]of many other things. If I have a goat and some chickens which aren't part of that mechanistic production it's ok?
Oooook diaspora
All I get from this endless debate is that pigs are Nazis Jews. Am I right?
@Oooook > Am I right?
No, the pig is yourself: there's a button to inhibit notifications and make the debate end for you, whatever others do.
Oooook diaspora
I'm genetically very close to a pig, and so are you
I'll concede you and I share the same last common ancestors with pigs, but we are more closely related to guinea pigs.
Pigs aren't nazis Jews ! They are jewish Nazis !
Oooook diaspora
Damn pigs. They aren't even vegans
Do pigs save seals ?
Do seals save pigs ?
The time has come, the Walrus said, to talk of many things
Of ships -- and shoes -- and sealing wax
Of why the sea is boiling hot
And whether pigs have wings
Winged pigs might be better at breaking sealing wax
and thus be destructive to seals
Oooook diaspora
They save them only to eat them. You can't trust pigs. A.P.A.B.
Oops, I forgot a rhyme

The time has come, the Walrus said, to talk of many things
Of cabbages and kings
Of ships – and shoes – and sealing wax
Of why the sea is boiling hot
And whether pigs have wings

-- Lewis Carroll
where did I asked
What is so wrong about eating eggs or milk?
itz a pathetic lie, that i asked that question!
@Axidentalists Axis:
Mammals animals have milk to feed their babies like our mothers did. Once you are weaned (around 2 years old), you don't have to drink milk anymore in your life. We are the only animal who drink milk from other specie. Milk is even bad for ealth.

"keeping blood and tissues at a neutral Ph balance always takes priority over keeping calcium phosphate in the bones. Bones can hold out for years with insufficient calcium, but blood and tissue cannot because they need phosphate to offset the acidity. When blood and tissues become acidic with animal protein, the body withdraws calcium phosphate from the bones and uses the alkaline mineral phosphate to keep the Ph levels of blood and tissue balanced. The calcium is then excreted through our urine. Since animal products are the main source of acidic protein, people who consume the least amount of animal protein always have the lowest rates of osteoporosis, bone fractures and other diseases. Interestingly, but not shockingly, Alaskan Eskimos, who consume large quantities of animal protein and rarely eat plants because of their icy environment, have the highest rates of osteoporosis in the world!"
http://www.2000biz.com/brianz/dont_drink_milk_04.html

You will have to get your goat pregnant every year so the milk can flow and steal the milk to the babies. What do you do then with the babies. Do you have 5 or ten every year and keep them? It will cost you a lot for a glass of milk :-). Why don't you get use to soy milk or any others.
This conference explains it all (min 38): https://hooktube.com/watch?v=U5hGQDLprA8

Concerning the eggs, it's a bit complicated. hens have been genetically altered to lay AROUND 300 EGGS annually instead of around 17. It is difficult to find a hen that has not been modified.
This means that in two years their body will have laid the eggs that it should lay throughout its entire life.They will suffer bone fractures, sewer prolapse, infections and cancer (80 % of hens die of cancer after 2 years when a non modified hen can live up to 15 years).
hens still have a desire to lay eggs in an attempt to procreate and become a mother. When eggs are stolen, their desire prompts them to lay even more eggs, which depletes calcium from their bodies as calcium is the main component of an egg’s shell. This makes hens calcium-deficient, forcing them to eat the shell neurotically to regain lost calcium.

Last thing: imagine everybody has a goat and a hen at home for its own consum, it guess it will affect the environment as weel as factory farm (I am not sure at all of this, just a supposition). 1000 farms with one animal might be as bas as one farm with 1000 animals (environmently speaking)
lol, @durand_eric@framasphere.org you are even to pathetic, to confess, that you lied, sad
Roland Häder doesn't like this.
read your comment 36
quote my comment! and not the comment from kundalani addict, you lying idiot!
Roland Häder doesn't like this.
You asked me to answer to that question too in your comment 36. Asshole
@durand_eric@framasphere.org thanks for the informative reply.
nope, you lie, quote me!
Roland Häder doesn't like this.